Twilight Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Download the Twilight Strategy e-book!

Pages: [1]

Author Topic: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?  (Read 5639 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« on: January 16, 2013, 09:59:30 pm »
0

Currently, the Chinese Civil War optional rules essentially act as a China brake, stopping the USSR from getting the China card right off the bat.

The sole purpose of the China region is to force the Soviets to play three influence. Once they have done so, according to canon, the three influence points are then immediately lost and the China card enters play. I am unsure of the chronology of this optional rule, but my suspicion is that it was introduced via a magazine article after the game's first edition was released, but before the game's updated edition (with optional cards) was released. Thus, its purpose was to redress the first edition's tilt towards Soviet strength. Once the optional cards came out, the game balance favored the Soviet side less, and the Chinese Civil War rebalancing effect was no longer necessary.

My group has been tinkering with a houserule wherein China is a region like any other, except that it's immune to any US effect. It thus functions as a 16th state in Asia, non-battleground, which serves a reliable Communist stronghold (despite the China Card's frequent shuttling back and forth between US and USSR). The Soviets can remove influence through the Destalinization event (and replace it through normal influence play) but otherwise, the sole purpose of China is to give the Soviets an assured "presence" country in Asia.

What does the hivemind think of this optional rule? My gamers have embraced it because a significant number of them are Chinese and it's just a fun little curio for their roots. But strategically I think it helps the Soviets in a post-upgrade game, where the card layout is no longer particularly much in their favor.
Logged

Riku Riekkinen

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 56
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2013, 11:16:42 pm »
0

My advice is to forget the China variant ever existed. I've been in a tourney where it was used and no USSR player ever did get the China card. Thus I call it no China variant. If you want China to be important, that is not a good variant to begin with.
Logged

Cal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Respect: +55
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 02:24:33 am »
0

The main thing about the China Variant many people forget (because they don't play it very often) is the USSR can't play Red Scare/Purge for the event until they have China.

That does more good for the US than the USSR temporarily not having the China Card.
Logged

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 09:17:27 am »
0

The main thing about the China Variant many people forget (because they don't play it very often) is the USSR can't play Red Scare/Purge for the event until they have China.

Why is the USSR unable to play RS/P for the event unless they have China? Is it just because there are so few 4OP cards in the early war that the USSR can use, or is there a deeper card analysis at work here?
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
  • Respect: +51
    • View Profile
    • Twilight Strategy
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 10:32:24 am »
+1

It's just part of the CCW rules.
Logged

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 10:45:30 am »
0

Oh, okay. So it's in the manual and I've merely forgotten it! Gosh, so that makes the CCW variant even more hobbling for the USSR.

Any other feedback about my other idea: of treating China as a US-immune non-BG state? Would it tilt Asia too strongly in favor of the Soviets? Or is it moderate enough that Asia is still competitive for both sides?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 10:46:41 am by Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov »
Logged

MarlesChartel

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 81
  • Wargameroom username: MarlesChartel
  • Respect: +20
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 02:49:45 pm »
0

I don't think it's very historical, I think it gives the USSR a decent amount of help in Asia, but it also makes Nixon Plays the China Card, Ussuri River Skirmish, and Cultural Revolution not make any sense anymore. If you remove those cards, that gives a good boost to the Soviets as well.
Logged

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 03:24:09 pm »
0

True, those are points relevant to the historical, contextual, and "flavor" issues of this rule. I'm not going to debate that here.

I'm only focusing on the mechanical game balance perspective: how would it play out? Would it be too powerful for the Soviets, or would it be tolerable?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2013, 03:56:44 pm by Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov »
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
  • Respect: +51
    • View Profile
    • Twilight Strategy
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 04:07:41 pm »
0

I'm not sure that it makes such a huge difference.  I often see Taiwan go unclaimed by either side, so I doubt this would be that different.
Logged

SnowFire

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 43
  • Respect: +15
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 06:40:55 pm »
0

Well, except that if I understand correctly, the rough CCW rules are still in effect in this variant, so the USSR gets a minor in Asia as a booby prize for prying out the China card, should they bother to do so.  (Which, as Riku pointed out, they will not unless they are facing a DEFCON loss; a 3 cost minor that isn't in SE Asia is probably too minor a benefit.)  If the variant just adds an extra country for the USSR to take but they start with the China card as normal - the Soviets clearly shouldn't bother investing in China at all until Asia is full, and even then only in the unusual situation of the USSR being behind 4-2 in BGs, but having an almost exactly equal country count with the US.  Even even then it's questionable.  3 ops can also usually do something like flip Indonesia or Laos, being +1 for you and -1 for them and helping out for SE Asia Scoring.

The CCW isn't quite as crippling to the USSR as it looks, though - it makes it easier for Lone Gunman / Ortega to cause a US DEFCON loss since the US is very unlikely to ever get a chance to get the China Card, except in the rare cases where the Soviets previously faced a DEFCON loss and thus dug out the China card.  But removing the one bit of strategy you can do to try and cope with surprise DEFCON losses is lame, and no-China Card otherwise is lame, so yeah, boo hiss CCW.
Logged

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 07:55:39 pm »
0

Interesting. We were thinking about how to make the CCW square relevant. One proposal was to make it a BG country, but then we unanimously agreed that it was overpowering for the USSR. 3 OP in CCW would give you the China card for 4/5 OP and effectively an unbeatable, uncoupable BG effectively worth 2 VPs. O_o

I guess treating CCW as an immune non-BG is probably a better way to go than treating it as an immune BG country.
Logged

Chimista

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Wargameroom username: chimista
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2013, 06:09:06 am »
0

I also think the CCW was a mistake for the reasons already named. Why do you want so bad to stick to it? There are better, fairer ways to correct the unbalance towards the USSR (+1 IP for the US looks good to me).
Logged

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2013, 11:00:59 am »
0

Why do you want so bad to stick to it?

This is taking us a little off-track from the mechanical rules discussion - but in any case, this point has already been addressed in the first post, here:

Quote from: Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov
My gamers have embraced it because a significant number of them are Chinese and it's just a fun little curio for their roots.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 11:02:23 am by Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov »
Logged

Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: How would it play out if USSR left its 3 influence in China?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 07:01:58 am »
0

Going through the rest of the topics, il's clear that a lot of players think the US side is a little underpowered, in the sense that they usually bid +2 ops for the US (so reliably, in fact, that people who don't do this are treated with a fair bit of surprise and novelty, apparently).

I want to revisit my question here based on this context. With no China card, the Soviets don't assuredly have a 4 ops card to coup Iran with, and they need to spend three points in order to get four (and, arguably as important, get the ability to hold two cards at the end of some turns rather than one).

How does it balance out if you force the soviets to spend three points rather than to unilaterally give the Americans two? Obviously Iran would probably still be very vulnerable, but the soviets won't have the immediate Asia-tilting China card right away.

Assume for this hypo that Red Scare/Purge and the Korean War are not administered any differently under these rules variants. (I know they're affected by the standard CCW rules in manual.)
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.117 seconds with 20 queries.