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Author Topic: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?  (Read 5203 times)

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Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

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This just came up.

The US had enough VP to win if they played Nixon Plays The China Card for 2 VP. However, they also had the South America scoring card. It is their final AR. Can they choose to play Nixon instead of the scoring card, and thus win with 20 VP?

My personal nonauthoritative interpretation is: yes, they may. The scoring card may not be held over at the end of the turn, but if the game ends before the turn is over (i.e. on the final AR) then no scoring card is "held" and the rule is never violated. (And this reading comes with me as the USSR player, no less.)

But I'd like to see what the official rule is.
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BamBix

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I would agree. The moment someone reaches 20 VP, the game is over. It doesn't matter what would happen afterwards, for example a defcon win.
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Cal

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It's on the map: checking for held scoring cards technically doesn't happen until after the turn is over AND the VP penalty for insufficient military ops is awarded. If you can achieve 20VP before then, nothing else matters.
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Azuredarkness

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That's correct. You can win on VP either on the last action round, or via Military ops while holding a scoring card.
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Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

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So this then brings up another question.

Under what situations can a player NOT play a scoring (which is in their hand) on their final AR?

Presumably, the answer would have to be "player cannot retain a scoring card past their final AR unless they are 100% certain that the game will end (or they will lose the scoring card through card powers) before the turn is officially ended".

Otherwise, you could have speculative "I thought something would happen to prevent the scoring card from being held" scenarios, which (if they don't come to pass) will mean the scoring card was illegally held.

One example could be if the Soviets know the Americans are holding something like Grain Sales for their final AR card. The Soviets have a scoring card and a nonscoring card for their final AR, and they choose the nonscoring card, to pump more OPs into the scoring card's region. The Americans are forced to play Grain Sales and they draw the scoring card. If they choose to play it, then it is not "held" and no rule is broken. But if they choose not to play it, then the Soviet player has essentially broken the "cannot hold scoring card" rule.

Another question is: what penalty should be assessed for a player who does hold a scoring card? Can you force a do-over of their last AR? Or could you enforce a penalty such as: the scoring card activates but ONLY the opponent gets to claim any VPs and the violating player's influence is considered to be zero for that card's purposes, etc.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 10:06:59 pm by Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov »
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blitzgordon

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So this then brings up another question.

Under what situations can a player NOT play a scoring (which is in their hand) on their final AR?

Presumably, the answer would have to be "player cannot retain a scoring card past their final AR unless they are 100% certain that the game will end (or they will lose the scoring card through card powers) before the turn is officially ended".

Otherwise, you could have speculative "I thought something would happen to prevent the scoring card from being held" scenarios, which (if they don't come to pass) will mean the scoring card was illegally held.

One example could be if the Soviets know the Americans are holding something like Grain Sales for their final AR card. The Soviets have a scoring card and a nonscoring card for their final AR, and they choose the nonscoring card, to pump more OPs into the scoring card's region. The Americans are forced to play Grain Sales and they draw the scoring card. If they choose to play it, then it is not "held" and no rule is broken. But if they choose not to play it, then the Soviet player has essentially broken the "cannot hold scoring card" rule.

Another question is: what penalty should be assessed for a player who does hold a scoring card? Can you force a do-over of their last AR? Or could you enforce a penalty such as: the scoring card activates but ONLY the opponent gets to claim any VPs and the violating player's influence is considered to be zero for that card's purposes, etc.

Well in this case you are not 100% sure, since the american player might well play Grain Sales for ops, thereby leaving you with the scoring card.
The penalty for holding a scoring card is, I have always heard, losing the game, same as through DEFCON suicide.
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MarlesChartel

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If you hold a scoring card, you auto-lose.
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Azuredarkness

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That's correct. The rules make somewhat of a muddle of the issue, but the original intent, as stated by the designers, is as follows:

You are allowed to keep a scoring card in your hand until the end of turn. If you have a scoring card as (one of) your held card(s), you automatically lose (The US wins if both players keeps scoring cards).
 
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Julio

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The US wins if both players keeps scoring cards.

lol, this forum is amazing. Every day I check it, I learn something new.
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Partidas al Twilight Struggle. Spanish blog with AAR of some games and other TS considerations.

Azuredarkness

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New and utterly useless, right?  :P
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MarlesChartel

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2013, 04:37:57 pm »
+1

Note that the "Discard held card" from the space race comes after checking if you held a scoring card.
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Cal

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2013, 06:44:51 pm »
+2

This actually came up in a game I had today. Through Aldrich Ames Remix, the USSR was able to force the US to play Lone Gunman by the end of the turn. The event was used to force him to discard Nuclear Test Ban, the only card he had that could alter the defcon.

...or so I thought. Actually I had overlooked Summit, which the US also had. He played it for the event on AR6, won (his board position was very good), and moved the defcon to 3. Grain Sales had reduced my hand to one last card: South America Scoring... the US had saved itself.

Or not. I remembered you can technically hold a scoring card and not lose until the turn is over, so I used the China Card to coup a bg country. Lone Gunman came out for his last card, and after another battleground coup the game ended in spectacular nuclear war.

It's so easy to forget the event of Summit. I almost let that win him the game as my position was so bad I would have surely lost otherwise.
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Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 07:59:32 am »
0

:applause:

That was masterful, tovarish!

I'm starting to see how useful the China card is in allowing you freedom to hold cards and force enemies to play other cards through your own inaction. Very interesting!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 06:01:54 pm by Comrade Pwnuby Khilemolov »
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BockBockChicken

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 04:31:18 pm »
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(The US wins if both players keeps scoring cards).

Are there any rules that actually says this? I don't recall seeing any. Also, a draw is allowed - with a final score of 0 VP, for example, so I'm inclined to think that both players holding scoring cards would be a draw, since there are no particular orders mentioned for revealing held cards.

Also, everyone is mentioning forcing an opponent to hold a scoring card. The rules specifically forbid this:

10.1.5 A player may not be forced to Hold a Scoring Card through the effects of an Event(s).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2013, 04:32:25 pm by BockBockChicken »
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Julio

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2013, 02:13:21 am »
0

10.1.5 A player may not be forced to Hold a Scoring Card through the effects of an Event(s).

I think this rule refers to Quagmire/Bear trap, Missile Envy and old Aldrich Ames.
To hold a scoring card voluntarily is forbidden and the only way to do it is by cheating or using Ask not...

Someone even may argue that if he/she uses Ask not... and draws more scoring cards than remaining action rounds, due to rule 10.1.5 the last scoring card should be discarded or reshuffled.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:15:55 am by Julio »
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Cal

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2013, 04:56:55 am »
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(The US wins if both players keeps scoring cards).
Are there any rules that actually says this? I don't recall seeing any.
It's a ruling from the designer when he was asked specifically about what if this situation happened.

Rule 10.1.5 applies to Quagmire/Bear Trap and possibly Missile Envy. It doesn't apply to Ask Not... because the event only deals with the drawing of replacement cards, not what those cards are or how they're played. At any rate, once a US player is aware of that danger they can easily prevent that happening by not discarding two (or more) cards if Ask Not...'s event is played by the USSR on the last AR.

If I recall correctly, the designers were also asked about the Ask Not... vulnerability and they ruled there that it was definitely a trap the US could put itself in that would lose it the game, if it drew enough scoring cards through discards that it'd be forced to hold one.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 04:59:10 am by Cal »
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Cal

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2013, 08:23:34 pm »
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No, that's not what happened.  If we're talking about my recount of a win: the US had headlined Grain Sales earlier in that turn, stealing a card from my hand. At that point when it became AR7, I only had South America Scoring and the China Card left in my hand. But the China Card let me coup to get the defcon back to 2 so he would be trapped with play of Lone Gunman. There was no forcing me to hold a scoring card, and I can't think of any use of this card that would force that sort of situation. Grain Sales was only related so far as it did not allow me a usual hold card.
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BockBockChicken

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Re: If you can win through VP on your final AR, can you "hold" a scoring card?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2013, 09:51:12 pm »
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Ah, it wasn't immediately clear on first reading.
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