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Author Topic: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)  (Read 10466 times)

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pietshaq

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2014, 02:52:27 am »
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One of us does not get the problem.
I mean that one can win by making moves which are not considered good but turn out to be good under certain circumstances. For example, USSR goes for Ops War and Europe Control after successful realignment rolls from West Germany and Italy on AR1. This is a play no good player would recommend but with enormous rolls it may lead to unstoppable Europe Control even on Turn 1 and even with the best counterplay. On the other side, the theory of gaming does not allow calling these moves 'mistakes' because they do not change the outcome of the game to the detriment of the player who plays the moves.
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lambolt

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2014, 05:51:51 pm »
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yeah I get that, which is why the solution would have to be an iterative process whereby someone would suggest a hand of cards each player got, and also specify cards drawn in subsequent rounds, then they'd outline a plan, and it would be up to others to say "yes but...." to show a counter, but with all die rolls assumed to favour the possible solution.
Of course this would not be easy, and probably impossible to "prove" what is the fastest, but I don't see how as a thought experiment you couldn't come up with a worst case/best case scenario for starting hands and provide a suggestion for how those would be played and see if it could be refuted.

As a start, maybe someone could nominate what might be a particularly lop sided set of starting hands, I guess biased in the USSR favour since they are most likely to dominate early on. What would be the nastiest USSR start hand, and coupled with the most horrific USA start hand. How would that hand be played out by experienced players. Then repeat for the second turn, assuming a particularly lopsided distribution of cards and suggest how that would be played by expert players. Now again with the 3rd turn, assuming a reshuffle that puts all the USSR events or something in both hands. All the best US early war cards don't get drawn by either player.

I think it would be fun to hear suggestions on how such a game might proceed.
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pietshaq

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2014, 02:43:30 am »
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Still may get to nowhere. For example, USA starting hand with 3 scorings, Blockade, Fidel, Nasser, Decolonization, and De-Stalinization is pretty awful, especially when USSR headlines RS/P, but this not necessarily helps USSR win ASAP. Decol can hurt immediately if it decides about Asia but Fidel will hurt since the Mid War and early De-Stal usually helps US survive the Early War because it transfers USSR's influence from the Early War regions to the Mid War regions. The all-over cost of this play is huge (too huge) and this is why this hand is horrible but it won't probably make the USSR victory very fast. Three scorings are just as awful as the other cards but in this case they help US get rid of them pretty cheaply (with ME Scoring at certain +4VPs if you play with +2) which comes at further costs.
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lambolt

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2014, 03:08:50 pm »
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Of course this would probably be impossible to do but you're still talking about "not necessarily" and being vague, the point would be YOU could specify the best possible start hand for the USSR as an idea, and the worst possible opponent USA hand. YOU would say OK I would headline this, and then you would say the best response would be this, and so on and so forth, now make all the rolls the worst for the USA, and repeat for a turn or 2, and see if you can show a reasonable set of plays that would in any case result in an impossible position, either by DEFCOn trap or VPs. Its not about saying "this or that hand isnt necessarily bad", its you specifying ALL THE CARDS in both hands, and suggesting the optimal play of those cards for BOTH sides, and then continuining until you get to a point where you can show that after X turns/rounds, even with perfect play, this set of cards would lead to a USSR win, etc etc.

Its almost certainly not possible to provide any definite answer, but when I said it "would be fun" to hear, I meant, since the solutions earlier in the thread were all about theoretically possible but including silly plays that no one would ever make, it would be fun if someone could come up with a set of turns that didnt seem unreasonable that led to victory in the shortest time, and after that, it would be up to someone else to say "yeah, but the USA could have played that card here instead and this would have changed that and thus the game would not have ended here"

Its not a difficult concept to grasp, but I agree it would be very difficult to do. It was more of a "for the hell of it" type idea for someone who knew the game well to suggest.
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pietshaq

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2014, 02:56:04 am »
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Well, if we talk about moves players actually would make, the word 'theoretically' stops making sense and we can just share experiences from real games.
I remember winning on T2AR4 as USSR by Europe Control. It was a serious game during the Polish TS Championships. My opponent risked an empty West Germany setup but did not pay enough attention to overprotect Italy. This, combined with a couple of good rolls, was enough.
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lambolt

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2014, 04:19:46 am »
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Wow that must have been pretty exhilarating! Hard to imagine winning any quicker than that in that way, congrats!
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pietshaq

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Re: Fastest possible victory (theoretically)
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2014, 06:46:11 am »
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I'd say it was but ask my opponent and you'll hear a different word  ;)
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