Twilight Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Download the Twilight Strategy e-book!

Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?  (Read 3243 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KingMento

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« on: September 19, 2013, 09:16:29 am »
0

Hello,
this is my first post on this forum, although I love reading it, as I find very interesting topics by many really competent players.

However, I'm a quite expert TS player (over 100 games under my belt) but now I'm wondering about a hypotetical situation that could actually become true in a game I'm actually playing on ACTS Ladder.

I'm not sure what would be the correct ruling about this scenario:

We are are the beginning of Turn 8. Defcon status is 3.

The USSR has a -4 VP leading on scoring track, but after a though Early War start US is quickly recovering and its board position is now overwhelming (US controls or dominates most of the region on the map).

USSR player knows that if the game goes to final scoring he will lose. Probably US player is holding some favorable scoring card this turn also.

UN Intervention card is in the discard pile (played previously during turn 7).

What do actually happen if USSR headlines WWBY (we assume that US headline is not influential) and then in its first action round plays Wargames to end the game and steal the victory?

Do this actually work?

Headlining WWBY would degrade Defcon status to 2 (thus meeting the precondition required by the Wargames event) and, unless UN Intervention is played as an event on the US player's next round USSR would gain 3 VP, going to a 7 VP lead.

Tecnically, USSR should wait the next US action round to verify that his opponent does not play UN Intervention and then get the 3 VPs.

He could wait his 2nd AR to play Wargames, but he is aware that if does not play Wargames on his 1st AR, there is high probability that US will play a card (scoring or other cards) that would move (forever) the VP track back in a safe zone for the US.

But in this scenario, UN Intervention is in the discard pile, it's a known and open information for both players, so there is no way the US could play that card on next AR to negate the 3 VP to URSS.

Can the USSR claim immediatly (during headline) the 3 VP because it is 100% certain that US could not negate it, and then trigger Wargames for the win, or he must wait until next US action round even if the effect is mathematical?

Thank you for the attention ;)

Stefano
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:17:38 am by KingMento »
Logged

Chimista

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Wargameroom username: chimista
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 11:20:11 am »
0

I think the answer is a clear NO. If the USSR plays Wargames in AR1 the score would be +2 overall.

Furthermore, there are ways the US can play UN in AR1: Starwars comes to my mind
Logged

KingMento

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3
  • Respect: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 11:42:54 am »
0

Furthermore, there are ways the US can play UN in AR1: Starwars comes to my mind

Thank you for your answer!

I did consider Star Wars, but I not included in the hypothetical scenario to avoid making presentation a little too wording.

There are anyway configurations in which you can exclude any real possibility, like:

1) This is the beginning of turn 9 (not turn 8 ) and Star Wars is in the discard pile
2) USSR is ahead many steps in Space Race
3) Narrow, but possible, US headlines in the same turn CIA created and USSR player reveals to both players that UN Intervention (and grain sales... and any silly combination that would allow US to play that card) is in his hand.

Actually, there aren't any other cards, beyond Star Wars, that would allow to US player to play an event from the discard pile in the first action round. So in the 1) or 2) cases, would be impossible to negate the VP points to USSR.

In this (theoretical, I know) situation, why couldn't USSR claim the VP immediately?

The text on WWBY is pretty clear, but a smart USSR player could argue "It is not written: "WAIT NEXT US AR..." but only "IF US PLAYS UN INTERVENTION"... and US can not for sure play it."

That said, I agree with your interpretation and I would not permit this to USSR, but still have litte doubt on a possible "borderline" exploitation of the rules  ???
Logged

Chimista

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 109
  • Wargameroom username: chimista
  • Respect: +18
    • View Profile
Re: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 11:55:41 am »
+1

I have read the card text again and your doubts are reasonable. In friendly games it could well be agreed that the 3vps are awarded as soon as UN play is known to be impossible.

I can tell you that in online games in wargameroom the 3vp's are only awarded the next USSR AR. I guess that would apply for oficial tournaments too, but I'm not experienced in that field. Let's wait for other people's opinions there.

In my opionion it's fair that you have to wait for the next AR. It adds a little more drama to the game and that's fun, isn't it? :)
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:56:59 am by Chimista »
Logged

Cal

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Respect: +55
    • View Profile
Re: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 11:09:34 pm »
+1

The USSR can't just award himself 3VP right away and then play Wargames. The text of the card specifically says the 3VP award doesn't occur until the US' round actually happens. That UN Intervention is in the discard and cannot possibly be played is irrelevant.

True, in this case the US can't play UN Intervention... but the US does have the opportunity to play some other card that will score him VP, if he correctly intuits you are trying to orchestrate a successful play of Wargames. Possible counters I can think of off the top of my head:

1. The US could play a card that earns him VP, either through text, scoring, or space race reward.
2. The US could play a card that improves the defcon.
3. The US could play a card that forces the USSR to discard Wargames, such as a lucky Five Year Plan, Terrorism, or even Missile Envy.
4. The US could force the USSR to miss a turn through Bear Trap.

Though if it's a friendly game and the US has no means of accomplishing any of this, you might wish to call the game there.  ;)
Logged

Julio

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
  • You are not a cylon!
  • Respect: +11
    • View Profile
    • Partidas al Twilight Struggle
Re: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 08:01:57 am »
0

If you play Wargames in AR1 the game ends inmediately and there is not a "next US's player round" so WWBY efect will not happen despite where the UN card is.
Logged
Partidas al Twilight Struggle. Spanish blog with AAR of some games and other TS considerations.

DC-Chaos

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
  • Wargameroom username: Damien_TS
  • Respect: +6
    • View Profile
Re: Can USSR steal the victory with WWBY and Wargames?
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2013, 04:42:39 pm »
+1

The fact that the card reads like this...

Quote
Unless "UN Intervention" is played as an Event on the US players next round, USSR Gains 3 VPs prior to any US VP award

....means the VPs are awarded in the US players turn. Otherwise there would be no reason for the text I put in bold on the card. The rule means that the USSR can auto win from those 3VPs before the US can score any VPs themselves, that's why it's there on the card but it also clarifies when exactly the points are scored. In the US turn, just before they score points themselves from playing a card other than UN.

The trick you are proposing is also simply a way to make Wargames easier to pull off. In my opinion it's an extremely hard thing to defend against as the opposing player because you need to pull off every trick available in your hand to score a VP here or raise the DEFCON there to try and stay in the game. Even then, by doing so, you may have seriously neglected your board position and given your opponent a way back in to certain regions. Therefore, for the sake of balanced play, I would disapprove of the trick working regardless of whether the rules were ambiguous about it or not. Taking away the only chance the US has to try and stop Wargames after they just lost 3VPs just isn't very nice.

Good question though. It's always good to know every option and possible to way to carve a victory out of a hopeless position. The 3 VPs combined with some other cards, a few lucky wars and the Space Race could give you enough to trigger Wargames after all. Maybe even to just get the draw.
Logged
Pages: [1]
 

Page created in 0.098 seconds with 22 queries.