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pietshaq

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Quiz
« on: May 09, 2015, 05:58:43 am »
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Find a scenario in which Chernobyl is a DEFCON suicide card for USSR.
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Jabber

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2015, 06:23:49 am »
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US has played Cuban Missile Crisis and somehow reduced USSR's hand-size forcing them to play all cards.

USSR is stuck with CIA Created, no Fidel, no Ortega, no Junta, no Liberation Theology, no presence in any mid-war battleground and no quick access to Cuba, so getting Chernobylled in Central America makes CIA Created a defcon suicide.

Something like that?
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pietshaq

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2015, 02:51:39 am »
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No.

1. Cuban Missile Crisis played on USSR is irrelevant because DEFCON-suicideness depends on US coups, not USSR coups. If you just wanted to drop DEFCON to 2, you may have assumed it was at 2 at the moment of scenario. It does not have to be the beginning of a turn.

2. If USSR is stuck with "no presence in any mid-war battleground", CIA is not a DEFCON suicide card.

3. I can't see the reason why Chernobyl really matters. I mean: if you slightly change this scenario (for example: grant USSR 1 IP in Nigeria), CIA will be a DEFCON suicide due to handsize reduction, no matter whether Chernobyl is active or not.
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Jabber

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2015, 09:57:52 am »
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1. CMC is a neutral event, and if played by the US, it might lead to defcon suicide for USSR.

2. That was my thinking, sort of. CIA would not by a defcon suicide card, unless CMC was in effect.

3. Chernobyl was so that USSR couldn't place influence in Cuba in order to cancel CMC.

Anyway, it was bit of a stab in the dark. I look forward to seeing the right answer.
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pietshaq

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2015, 11:35:04 am »
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If CMC is a DEFCON suicide for USSR, cancelling CMC does not help. CMC prevents USSR from couping, while DEFCON suicideness depends on whether US can coup or not in this case.
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Stryker

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2015, 11:53:37 am »
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DEFCON at 2.  No USSR or USA influence anywhere on the board in Africa, S. America, or C. America, and no USSR influence in Asia or Mideast (I know, rather unlikely).  USSR holds Chernobyl and Summit and cannot hold a card.  USSR plays Chernobyl for ops to take control of Europe.  USA designates Europe as region USSR may not add influence by playing ops.  USA already has or takes control of all countries adjacent to Europe and USSR (North Korea, Afghanistan, Syria, Algeria, Morocco).  USSR cannot add 1 influence to one of its European countries because of Chernobyl.  USSR cannot coup or realign a USA country because of defcon restrictions and no influence in mid war regions.  USSR cannot add influence to USA country because all non-Europe adjacent countries are controlled and 1 op isn't enough to add influence to a controlled country. USSR space Summit because 1 op is not enough.  Thus, USSR cannot legally play Summit for coup, realignment, influence, or space, and cannot hold the card, so USSR must play Summit for the event.  USA wins the die rolls and degrades defcon to 1.
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pietshaq

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2015, 04:23:11 pm »
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WOW!

I would never come up with such an answer! This is not what I meant but this may be correct, I don't know whether the rules allow resigning from placing influence :)

By the way: add Purged USSR and Olympic Games instead of Summit and you don't have to worry about the dice :)

Addendum: repair details. Either USSR can't coup or USA can't control Algeria and Morocco. I suggest placing USSR under Cuban Missile Crisis ;)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 04:26:06 pm by pietshaq »
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mihaild

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2015, 08:21:15 pm »
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Stryker's scenario needs a small fix (if US has control of Algeria, USSR can realign them). Say, for example, that USSR has no influence at all, and US controls Afganistan and North Korea.

Jabber's CMC scenario can be fixed as well.
For example, USSR has no influence on Cuba but can get it (for example, it controls Nicaragua and Haiti). US has Lone Gunman and has to play it on their AR6 (due to terrorism, for example). USSR has CIA and has to play it on AR7.
Both US and USSR has influence in midwar BGs. So without Chernobyl, USSR just ends CMC and wins when US plays Lone Gunman. With it, USSR has to play CIA and lose.

Edit: Stryker's Scenario needs a bigger fix. USSR has to have influence in midwar BG, and US has to have no influence in midwar regions (or USSR can realign). So for example USSR has influence in Angola, Chernobyl forbids Africa and all countries adjacent to USSR are US-controlled.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 08:28:21 pm by mihaild »
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pietshaq

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 04:03:24 am »
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Very nice fix to Jabber's CMC scenario. Seems to work (although I did not think about it).

I guess Stryker's idea is easily overthrown, on the other side, as a whole. I declare that I use my 1Op card (Summit or purged Olympic Games) for realignments and that I give up my last roll. Using all rolls is never mandatory during realignments.

Edit: CMC scenario does not work. USSR has to play Chernobyl so that we can say this is a DEFCON suicide card (otherwise it's not a suicide). If USSR plays it on AR6, he declares to use Ops first and fixes Cuba, then ends CMC immediately. You can't speak about forced DEFCON suicide if it depends on a non-optimal card play of the player who commits a suicide (HILTSW used to drop DEFCON to 1 is also not forced).
If USSR is not in Nicaragua/Haiti but in Dominican Rep or Honduras, on the other way, Chernobyl on AR6 does not change anything in comparison to any other card that may just be played for ops, so this particular card is not decisive. Maybe this is to be fixed, I can't see now how.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 04:09:19 am by pietshaq »
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Stryker

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 12:43:06 pm »
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I guess Stryker's idea is easily overthrown, on the other side, as a whole. I declare that I use my 1Op card (Summit or purged Olympic Games) for realignments and that I give up my last roll. Using all rolls is never mandatory during realignments.

The only problem with my scenario was that I was inconsistent in saying (1) no USA influence anywhere in the third world and (2) USA has or take control of the African countries adjacent to Europe.  The second messed up the scenario by allowing the USSR to coup/realign with Summit instead of being forced to play it for the event.  The fix is easy enough however.  Instead of USA having or taking control of the African countries adjacent to Europe, just assume that the USSR does not have any influence in the European countries adjacent to Africa (i.e., Spain, France, and Turkey).  Now, the USA does not need to take control of the African countries to prevent the USSR from playing influence into one of them.

The real problem is that the USSR can avoid defcon suicide by playing Summit before Chernobyl.  But, I'm not sure that that disqualifies my scenario from your quiz.
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Stryker

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 12:47:26 pm »
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Edit: Stryker's Scenario needs a bigger fix. USSR has to have influence in midwar BG, and US has to have no influence in midwar regions (or USSR can realign). So for example USSR has influence in Angola, Chernobyl forbids Africa and all countries adjacent to USSR are US-controlled.

I think your scenario works on the same principle of Chernobyl forcing a play for the event of Summit, but not sure why USSR has to have influence in a midwar BG?  Now, if we assumed USSR was holding CIA, then USSR influence in a midwar BG would be mandatory.
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mihaild

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 01:36:35 pm »
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Not sure what "defcon suicide card" is then.
Obviously Chernobyl can't lead to immediate lose by defcon, so what is the restriction? USSR will lose by defcon assuming they plays optimally and have Chernobyl, but wouldn't lose if Chernobyl will be replaced by non-important 3ops card?
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pietshaq

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 02:20:55 pm »
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The real problem is that the USSR can avoid defcon suicide by playing Summit before Chernobyl.  But, I'm not sure that that disqualifies my scenario from your quiz.

It does not. If USSR has Nuclear Subs and CIA, CIA is a DEFCON suicide card because playing it now would lose. Playing Nuclear Subs first cancels the suicideness of CIA, yet it still was a DEFCON suicide card.

I think your scenario works on the same principle of Chernobyl forcing a play for the event of Summit, but not sure why USSR has to have influence in a midwar BG?  Now, if we assumed USSR was holding CIA, then USSR influence in a midwar BG would be mandatory.

This is not a problem. USSR may as well have unspaceable Duck and Cover.

The restriction is: USSR has Chernobyl. If he plays it now, the optimal play of both players leads to Soviet DEFCON suicide. If USA was unable to use the effect of the Chernobyl event, this suicide would not happen, and the game could go on long. (Treat the last sentence as a hint that there is no race in my solution, like: USSR will lose by DEFCON anyway but Chernobyl is decisive whether he will be able to win before the DEFCON suicide or not).
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mihaild

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Re: Quiz
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2015, 12:16:35 pm »
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USSR has Chernobyl, CMC, CIA and some 2-ops card. US has full hand of 1-ops cards. USSR can't hold or space anything. China card is not available for anyone.
Both US and USSR have influence near WG, WG is empty, Turkey is out of US reach.

Scenario: USSR plays their 2 ops into WG. Next turn USSR plays Chernobyl to control WG (making it 1/5 at the worst). Then USSR plays CMC, then plays CIA (as US can't get rid of CMC).
Edit: even simpler, USSR plays CMC and plays CIA on next AR before US place 2 to WG.

Scenario: USSR plays Chernobyl. US denies Europe and puts 1 into WG. Next turn US will put another 1 into WG, and end CMC to get CIA coup.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 02:30:54 pm by mihaild »
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