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Author Topic: The Iron Lady  (Read 6467 times)

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Matty Defense

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The Iron Lady
« on: December 04, 2012, 01:57:31 am »
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Thoughts? Discussion?
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Cal

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 03:31:13 am »
+1

I think this is the only non-neutral card that places influence that belongs to the other player.

Nice of Theory to point out that a USSR player cannot simply play this for the event then spend ops to control Argentina, unless they had influence already there or adjacent to it.
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Cal

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2012, 02:32:23 pm »
+1

What? USSR surely can use the event first and then play OPs to take control of Argentina, even if had no IPs in or adjacent to Argentina.
But the influence there wasn't there at the beginning of the action round, right? Only after the event happened.
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Matty Defense

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 11:01:58 pm »
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Historical/military perspective - I have no idea why the USSR would get any influence from this card.  GBR easily won the Falkland Islands campaign and it further enhanced the USA/GBR relationship in the southern hemisphere IMO. 
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Cal

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2012, 12:48:27 am »
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Historical/military perspective - I have no idea why the USSR would get any influence from this card.  GBR easily won the Falkland Islands campaign and it further enhanced the USA/GBR relationship in the southern hemisphere IMO.
I think the logic is that the Falkland War caused the Argentina government to de-stabilize, which could have lead to another situation like the Allende card where a Soviet-friendly government could've formed.
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Matty Defense

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 01:29:56 am »
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Historical/military perspective - I have no idea why the USSR would get any influence from this card.  GBR easily won the Falkland Islands campaign and it further enhanced the USA/GBR relationship in the southern hemisphere IMO.
I think the logic is that the Falkland War caused the Argentina government to de-stabilize, which could have lead to another situation like the Allende card where a Soviet-friendly government could've formed.

The ruling party that collapsed after the Falkland Islands campaign was a military junta.  The junta was not overly popular among the citizens of Argentina.  In fact, the junta was a plain dictatorship and there was already a pro-democratic opposition party growing in Argentina around the time of the campaign.  The replacement government that came from the junta's collapse was a constitutional based government. 

I think I will have to continue to disagree with the designers awarding USSR 1 op in Argentina.  If anything the card should be a 2 OP card that just prevents Socialist Governments. 
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SnowFire

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 02:06:13 am »
+1

Twilight Struggle takes place in a grim world where absolutely everything vaguely anti-Western is secretly an agent of Moscow.  Allende was a democrat too, as were the vast majority of Liberation Theologians, but they're leftists so they were secretly just waiting to hand the country over to international communism.  The point is that the Falklands War riles up some anti-Western sentiment in Argentina, which is entirely true, and whether the governments before or after are democratic or not is a moot point to TS. 
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Eruantalon

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 05:37:17 am »
+1

Are you jokeing? Allende was a communist, who nationalised most of country's big companies (which is equall to stealing them) and was becoming more and more socialistic in his action with every year, eventually breaking Chile's constitution. He not only led Chile to ecoomical crisis - he did it in a soviet way, colabortating with such countries, as Cuba.
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theory

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 07:23:40 am »
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I think you are both right:

Quote
Salvador Allende Gossens (Spanish pronunciation: [salbaˈðoɾ aˈʝende ˈɣosens]; 26 June 1908 – 11 September 1973) was a Chilean physician and politician, known as the first Marxist to become president of a Latin American country through open elections.
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Matty Defense

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2012, 11:46:03 am »
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Are you jokeing? Allende was a communist, who nationalised most of country's big companies (which is equall to stealing them) and was becoming more and more socialistic in his action with every year, eventually breaking Chile's constitution. He not only led Chile to ecoomical crisis - he did it in a soviet way, colabortating with such countries, as Cuba.

Thank you!  In reference to the game I think the Allende card is too under valued.  It should probably provide direct control over Chile.  Iron Lady should either provide US control of Argentina, or just get rid of Socialist Governments and not place any UUSR influence in Argentina.

I understand SnowFire's point.  But for a historical standpoint, which the game is based on, there was no way that either GBR or USA (or even the OAS) would have allowed Argentina to flip to a pro-Soviet government.  If the government that came after the junta was pro-Communist, we would have seen a second Falklands War. 
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Chimista

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2012, 07:00:46 pm »
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I don't think itīs a good idea to mix TS with politics. I believe the designers didn't want to create a political simulation at all, but just an amazing strategy game with a historical background.
I think itīs ok to give USSR 1 inf. in Argentina with Iron Lady, reflecting the downfall of a right wing dictatorship which made the mistake of picking a fight with an enemy of a very similar ideology. Sometimes right wing leaders fight between them weakening USAīs geopolitical power.
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Nightlyraver

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2012, 11:45:09 pm »
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Twilight Struggle takes place in a grim world where absolutely everything vaguely anti-Western is secretly an agent of Moscow.  Allende was a democrat too, as were the vast majority of Liberation Theologians, but they're leftists so they were secretly just waiting to hand the country over to international communism. 

I think that was actually the perception at the time, which is what Twilight Struggle is trying to simulate.  The USSR was the apparent leader of the communist/socialist movement.  So it was almost expected that any kind of communist or socialist regime change (or attempt) would fall in line with Moscow.  Of course, that did not always occur in reality...
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Matty Defense

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 11:59:20 pm »
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Twilight Struggle takes place in a grim world where absolutely everything vaguely anti-Western is secretly an agent of Moscow.  Allende was a democrat too, as were the vast majority of Liberation Theologians, but they're leftists so they were secretly just waiting to hand the country over to international communism. 

I think that was actually the perception at the time, which is what Twilight Struggle is trying to simulate.  The USSR was the apparent leader of the communist/socialist movement.  So it was almost expected that any kind of communist or socialist regime change (or attempt) would fall in line with Moscow.  Of course, that did not always occur in reality...

Yes that is what they were trying to emulate.  However, it was known at the time that the government that opposed the military junta was pro democratic.  That is why the 1 INF for the USSR makes little sense to me.
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Matty Defense

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 12:03:04 am »
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I don't think itīs a good idea to mix TS with politics. I believe the designers didn't want to create a political simulation at all, but just an amazing strategy game with a historical background.
I think itīs ok to give USSR 1 inf. in Argentina with Iron Lady, reflecting the downfall of a right wing dictatorship which made the mistake of picking a fight with an enemy of a very similar ideology. Sometimes right wing leaders fight between them weakening USAīs geopolitical power.

TS is based on politics that were/are part of the past, present, and future.  I think you are missing the point of the discussion(s)... its an open forum where all aspects can be talked about.  In this case, I am arguing that the USSR should get 0 INF in Argentina because GBR and Margaret Thatcher who spearheaded the Falkland Islands conflict aided in collapsing a military junta which led to a pro democratic government.

At least IMO... I could very well be wrong.  I will have to email a few professors that I had back in the day, including one that specializes in Latin American politics and get his opinion.
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SnowFire

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 02:14:23 am »
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Eruantalon / Matty Defense, my point is that "Democratic" / "Not Democratic" is not a distinction Twilight Struggle cares about even a little.  In the world of TS, Western-leaning dictators are American influence (as are Western democrats of course), and forces that didn't like the West become communist whether democratic or not (the uneasy alliance in TS of the KGB with both democrats like Charles de Gaulle (!), Willy Brandt, hippies, and Nelson Mandela; or for that matter religious types like Muslim Revolutionaries & Liberation Theologians).  And of course both sides cheerfully embrace Juntas, Nazis, etc.  So the fact that Argentina went from a dictatorship to a democracy is irrelevant; in the real-life version of TS, maybe the Soviets had an opening briefly in Argentina, but the US refortified Argentina with an influence to repair or something.  (Also I find it HIGHLY implausible the claim there'd have been an outright war had Argentina ended up with a Soviet-friendly government afterward - Thatcher went to great pains to declare she wasn't going to attack the Argentinian mainland, and such a venture would have been foolish & impossible from such a long distance.  Provide funding for revolutionaries to coup Argentina perhaps, but war no.)

Also one of Twilight Struggle's great strengths is the alternative history side of it, and when TS gets too heavy-handed about guiding history it actually annoys me a tad (say cards like US/Japan Pact which just tell one side "sorry you lose this country").  So Allende providing direct control of Chile would be bad from both a historical perspective & a game perspective to me.  (If you want to play a game that enforces re-creating history rather than writing your own, take a look at Here I Stand...  cool idea, but dang if that game isn't on rails as far as what you're supposed to do.)
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Chimista

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 04:08:34 am »
+1

I don't think itīs a good idea to mix TS with politics. I believe the designers didn't want to create a political simulation at all, but just an amazing strategy game with a historical background.
I think itīs ok to give USSR 1 inf. in Argentina with Iron Lady, reflecting the downfall of a right wing dictatorship which made the mistake of picking a fight with an enemy of a very similar ideology. Sometimes right wing leaders fight between them weakening USAīs geopolitical power.

TS is based on politics that were/are part of the past, present, and future.  I think you are missing the point of the discussion(s)... its an open forum where all aspects can be talked about.  In this case, I am arguing that the USSR should get 0 INF in Argentina because GBR and Margaret Thatcher who spearheaded the Falkland Islands conflict aided in collapsing a military junta which led to a pro democratic government.

At least IMO... I could very well be wrong.  I will have to email a few professors that I had back in the day, including one that specializes in Latin American politics and get his opinion.

Iīm sorry if I didn't make my point clear. Of course I think is legitimate to discuss the politics or any other aspect of the game, I just wanted to point out that IMHO TS is not a political simulation, so it oversimplifies many political complexities to achieve in exchange awesome playability with historical flavour.
This is specially true when we see, as Snowfire mentioned, that democratic governments or dictatorships become just influence points to one or the other side.

There is however, space for subtlety, such as the Iron Lady 1 inf, which shows a political swing (A huge swing for Argentinians, but a small one for geopolitics) as a military junta is replaced by a democratic government, opening a gap for left-wing policies and thus curtailing the influence of the US. Also Allende, being a marxist and implementing heavy left-wing policies, such as the nationalizations mentioned by Eruantalon, was a democratic leader who had to struggle with a right-wing leaning congress to rule, so I think that the choice of 2 USSR influence is right as well.

Another example of this kind of political "subtleties" in the game is, IMO, the card "Socialist Governments", which reflects a left-wing swing in European democratic countries, which normally is bad news for the US (Since this kind of governments tend to be more critical with US imperialism and military ventures, namely wars in Iraq) but still not a complete success for the USSR, just the opening of a small gap which -with good timing and some cunning- could be exploited.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 04:01:54 pm by Chimista »
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Riku Riekkinen

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Re: The Iron Lady
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2012, 12:33:55 pm »
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What? USSR surely can use the event first and then play OPs to take control of Argentina, even if had no IPs in or adjacent to Argentina.
But the influence there wasn't there at the beginning of the action round, right? Only after the event happened.

Very sorry. I thought I knew the rules well. And that is even an old issue. I removed my post, because it had begun to collect thumbs. So someone might take that seriously.
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